Windproof vs Waterproof

Alpha and a windshirt is great when you're tabbing on

For normal hikes i prefer a fleece and a waterproof jacket

Personally I always carry a windproof and waterproof in summer, but use the windproof more.

Why? Membrane/coated waterproofs have a limited lifespan so I try to use only when raining, and windproofs tend to be more comfortable (less rustle, softer, quieter) and more breathable so I find them more pleasant to wear.

In the colder months I tend to use Paramo, but not carry a windproof as the system has the same durabilty and comfort.

In set dry summer conditions I'd be thinking about just taking the windproof.

I accept that taking a waterproof by itself as a multi use item would save weight, but I find that I use a windproof more than any other clothing in the mountains - much more than a fleece (well, I almost never wear a fleece when moving on the hills), more than a waterproof. And the weight penalty to carry a windproof is typically minimal.

Everyone has a system that is comfortable and works for them - this works for me and reflects the windy environments I am used to; and was influenced by Chris Townsend's articles in TGO many years ago.

I think the environment your usually in plays a big roll.

But one reason to use a windproof is that they normally have a breathability a factor of magnitude greater than a good waterproof. Almost all prioritize windproofness over breathability though, which for me then kinda undermines the point of wearing one.

The tension for me is between taking a windproof and wpb or just the wpb. Weight wise the fauxini is the only light WP that I know of that breathes well, but it does everything else poorly so it's out.
I like the MH kor preshell, does everything well Inc breathe, but it weighs as much as an ul wpb....

Question is, is 140g a weight your prepared to carry to lengthen the life of your wpb and be more comfortable when generating sweat?

For me depends on the trip/environment, but generally yes. 140g is not much for increased comfort.
But it feels odd to bring a 140g WP to save wear on an 85g wpb!

This is a subject that comes up again and again on Hiking forums.

It depends on the individual. And the Waterproof.


For me, pretty much what Robert says.

Happy to only use my waterproof only when raining.

On cost.
A wonky analogy I have made from experience of using many jackets , is that a lightweight membrane or 2.5layer waterproof when new, is "Fully Charged" with "waterproofness" (and beading ability/DWR) .
Wearing it (especially with a pack), stuffing it, throwing it in the back of the car, all contribute to "discharging" it . In the end, even if "recharged" by reproof ing, if the membrane/coating fails its duff as a waterproof.

I want my expensive lightweight jacket's "charge" to last, and be available for "proper rain". So it's treated nicely, stored dry in a light stuffsac and only used in Rain, and doesn't see the light of day until needed.

I have a Rab slipstream (pertex shield bought in 2009) that is a little frayed round the cuffs, but is pretty sound. Partner and friends seem to have killed 2 or 3 similar style jackets in the time, by the way they wear or treat them.





I see my windshirt as a warm layer too.

My 2 "warm season" windshirts are less windproof (more air permeable) than the light 2.5layer waterproofs I carry. And 85g

My Cold Season (-windchill) Windproof (160g) is more windproof than the waterproof jackets I wear or carry then (Paramo or eVent). I may not take it if windchill not expected.

There are times when the windproof stays at home but it's not often.

Windproofs are my workhorses. A hooded windproof layer traps a massive amount of heat and I very often sleep in it. It'll deal with a good majority of the rain and doesnt suffer with wearing out it's DWR like (as Mole points out very well) a waterproof jacket does.

Windproofs suit our UK climate quite well. We live on a windy island subjected to a lot of weather and very often it's the windchill that has the largest effect on our perceived comfort.

Personally, I try to wear my windproof as often as possible, whereas the opposite applies to the waterproof jacket.

Teepee said:

There are times when the windproof stays at home but it's not often.

Windproofs are my workhorses. A hooded windproof layer traps a massive amount of heat and I very often sleep in it. It'll deal with a good majority of the rain and doesnt suffer with wearing out it's DWR like (as Mole points out very well) a waterproof jacket does.

Windproofs suit our UK climate quite well. We live on a windy island subjected to a lot of weather and very often it's the windchill that has the largest effect on our perveived comfort.

Personally, I try to wear my windproof as often as possible, whereas the opposite applies to the waterproof jacket.

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Same

My experience on durability of windproofs is similar to Mole's - I don't take any special care but am yet to wear one out. Been using the same Montane Jetstream (at the light end of the scale) for backpacking since 2008. I'm sure you could destroy them if you try...

Teepee said:

There are times when the windproof stays at home but it's not often.

Windproofs are my workhorses. A hooded windproof layer traps a massive amount of heat and I very often sleep in it. It'll deal with a good majority of the rain and doesnt suffer with wearing out it's DWR like (as Mole points out very well) a waterproof jacket does.

Windproofs suit our UK climate quite well. We live on a windy island subjected to a lot of weather and very often it's the windchill that has the largest effect on our perveived comfort.

Personally, I try to wear my windproof as often as possible, whereas the opposite applies to the waterproof jacket.

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Me too. Plus what @Mole and @Robert P say.

Chiseller said:

I donned my OMM Phantom hoody, Stretched it over my small back pack /race vest and my front pack ( RIBZ )
It worked great, especially considering it has zero venting options other than loose hem and hood down, sleeves pushed partly up.
It kept me dry from rain and comfortable from sweat. I admit, the breathability was possibly good due to the air gaps created by my packs.

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This is a good option for people who can buy an oversize jacket which will go round their body plus kit. I'm maxed into XL already so it's not an option for me.

I know capes don't get much love around here, but my 210g 1.5mx2.2m cape gets use in the daytime as a cover all waterproof for proper rain, and then chucked under the tarp as a puncture resistant groundcloth at night instead of carrying a bathtub. The way I count weights in my system, this means I have a 105g waterproof, and a 105g groundsheet.

Yes, capes can be a bit flappy in windy driving rain, but to be honest, continuous windy driving rain has me looking for a place to pitch and settle down for some rest until it stops.

Teepee said:

There are times when the windproof stays at home but it's not often.

Windproofs are my workhorses. A hooded windproof layer traps a massive amount of heat and I very often sleep in it. It'll deal with a good majority of the rain and doesnt suffer with wearing out it's DWR like (as Mole points out very well) a waterproof jacket does.

Windproofs suit our UK climate quite well. We live on a windy island subjected to a lot of weather and very often it's the windchill that has the largest effect on our perceived comfort.

Personally, I try to wear my windproof as often as possible, whereas the opposite applies to the waterproof jacket.

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My wind proof is always to hand no matter what the weather's like.

From what I've read on bpl dwr is degraded primarily by abrasion, so I do as Mole suggests.

Anyone wear a windshell over a WP shell?

Chiseller said:

Anyone wear a windshell over a WP shell?

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I do sometimes in winter over my Paramo Alta3 if strong winds and cold. (Old montane litespeed)
Not if raining though.

Mole said:

I do sometimes in winter over my Paramo Alta3 if strong winds and cold. (Old montane litespeed)
Not if raining though.

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Breathability would be less of an issue with your paramo. I may try a windshell over a membrane shell.(for research purposes in a safe environment) .. Worst case I'll be like findus boil-in-bag beef

I use it over the Paramo, because the Paramo outer fabric isn't as windproof as pertex microlight.

What advantage would you hope to get over a membrane shell which is windproof anyway?


An aside.
I know of some Mountain Leader trainers who use 2 waterproofs. When the going gets tough, they just chuck another hardshell over the first.
Sounds warm. And sweaty.

Mole said:

It depends on the individual.

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Pretty much this. I like going up high and naturally get a sweat on.
I haven't found anything that is truly breathableb but plenty that are 100% waterproof.

Enzo said:

I think the environment your usually in plays a big roll.

But one reason to use a windproof is that they normally have a breathability a factor of magnitude greater than a good waterproof. Almost all prioritize windproofness over breathability though, which for me then kinda undermines the point of wearing one.

The tension for me is between taking a windproof and wpb or just the wpb. Weight wise the fauxini is the only light WP that I know of that breathes well, but it does everything else poorly so it's out.
I like the MH kor preshell, does everything well Inc breathe, but it weighs as much as an ul wpb....

Question is, is 140g a weight your prepared to carry to lengthen the life of your wpb and be more comfortable when generating sweat?

For me depends on the trip/environment, but generally yes. 140g is not much for increased comfort.
But it feels odd to bring a 140g WP to save wear on an 85g wpb!

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Yes, I live in a semi-arid climate and so prioritize breathability over waterproofness. I'm using my wind/soft shells (e.g., Kor Preshell, Alpine Start) far more often than my WPBs (Kinetic Plus, Marmot Bantamweight, Zeta FL). I find that they are just better active pieces over a wider range of temps here.

If it's more than a light rain I go with the WBP. Trips I generally take both options. I tend to only have use for the WPBs in cooler weather, the wind/soft shells I use all seasons. Example, yesterday I comfortably wore the Kor Preshell over my cap air crew in overcast 64F weather. At 54F I might layer it over a thin merino base and light fleece or alpha mid. Warmer weather I often use over a light tee. Just a lot more versatile than the WPBs in my climate.

Of course, a WPB with the same comfort/breathability as a wind/soft shell would be great. The Kinetic Plus has the softshell feel and pretty good breathability for a WPB, but I still wouldn't wear if it's not raining. Maybe Berghaus Hyper 100?

Mole said:

I use it over the Paramo, because the Paramo outer fabric isn't as windproof as pertex microlight.

What advantage would you hope to get over a membrane shell which is windproof anyway?


An aside.
I know of some Mountain Leader trainers who use 2 waterproofs. When the going gets tough, they just chuck another hardshell over the first.
Sounds warm. And sweaty.

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I heard about that too when doing my summer ML. You do move like snails on nav legs so, drier the better...

I did wonder when doing winter ML training if I could vary this option. I thought about a shell over my paramo giving me a double whammy as Paramo has no membrane. I've still to figure out the ultimate stand around in rubbish weather option in winter. They are very keen on hardshell as standard all day wear on winter ML.

My problem is I tend to overheat going uphill after 40 mins with a shell on even if I 'Be bold. Start cold'

tallest of pauls said:

I heard about that too when doing my summer ML. You do move like snails on nav legs so, drier the better...

I did wonder when doing winter ML training if I could vary this option. I thought about a shell over my paramo giving me a double whammy as Paramo has no membrane. I've still to figure out the ultimate stand around in rubbish weather option in winter. They are very keen on hardshell as standard all day wear on winter ML. My problem is I tend to overheat going uphill after 40 mins with a shell on even if I 'Be bold. Start cold'

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For stair-rod conditions in winter, I've been occasionally using a 180g Decathlon Waterproof Smock over my Paramo during the worst episodes. It's not that breathable, but a welcome extra barrier when moving slow in cold aquatic situations. I hate having to take a top layer off to get another midlayer on if cold.

I carry 2 anyway (as emergency gear) when leading/teaching nav to Explorers in winter. We go out most weathers. Sometimes, the waterproofs their parents send them out with often aren't as waterproof as they think...

I use the xl/2xl, and also carry the m/l

I have one of those to chuck over on ice axe sliding sessions to save the dwr on my main WP.

I also have cheap cut off to shorts length work wear helly hansen wp bottoms for sitting in bucket seats. I look a proper mountain tinker compared to some!