Fossil Bluff
Thru Hiker
Some messing about with tent pegs... 
The Bent Peg!
- Thread starter Fossil Bluff
- Start date
Mole
Thru Hiker
The double peg is a good tip. Will have to use it.
Pity you didn't try the DAC pegs "reversed" as you call it - or the right way round as I believe.
( It would work more like you had the Y peg set then).
This guy's strain test found that open face on the guy side is over twice as good.
Pity you didn't try the DAC pegs "reversed" as you call it - or the right way round as I believe.
( It would work more like you had the Y peg set then).
This guy's strain test found that open face on the guy side is over twice as good.
EM-Chiseller
Thru Hiker
turkeyphant
Section Hiker
Lots of talk about 45 degree angle to the ground. I always assumed it's better to get the peg perpendicular to the direction the guy is pulling. Have I been doing this wrong?
Fossil Bluff
Thru Hiker
In a former life I was a professional SAR rope rescue specialist. The same physical properties apply to tent pegs as they would to our ground anchors, which were double staked pegs (effectively) 1.2 long, 30mm dia and back lashed - Vertical provides the most ground resistance, but we angled the front stake back at 20 degrees to keep the back lashing taught. I would imagine that because the guy is projecting up toward the tent, you need to angle the peg to retain the guy - but 45 degrees doesn't enter into it.
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Fossil Bluff
Thru Hiker
Yup, it is very strong - but the peg needs to be tough enough. You're right a DAC would probably be 'the daddy' they're pretty tough aren't they. But there is only so much I can put into a video - editing th is one was quite challenging for various reasons
I used the Ti Peg, because I was actually quite sure, in good holding ground, that it would warp - 
Odd Man
Thru Hiker
I did have you pegged as bit of an expert when it comes to stakes, and I think Petra and @Chiseller are experts when it comes to steaks. 
Fossil Bluff
Thru Hiker
I did have you pegged as bit of an expert when it comes to stakes, and I think Petra and @Chiseller are experts when it comes to steaks.
<groans> and waves in a general Westerly direction
I watched a great compilation of news footage the other day of the original beast of Bodmin - The 'yokels' all sounded a bit too Cornish, until you got to the local police dog handler 'who was prooooceeding in a Westerly directshun at the time' you get the picture
Odd Man
Thru Hiker
<groans> and waves in a general Westerly direction
I was slightly disappointed that you didn't use clothes pegs to air dry steaks to make the bit even more punishing...
Fossil Bluff
Thru Hiker
I was slightly disappointed that you didn't use clothes pegs to air dry steaks to make the bit even more punishing...
Biltong... there's a thought.
Odd Man
Thru Hiker
Fossil Bluff
Thru Hiker
turkeyphant
Section Hiker
Surely vertical only provides most ground resistance if force is horizontal? I still don't see why perpendicular to force is not always best.
EM-Chiseller
Thru Hiker
I've always used them that way.
Like a grafter. The open concave face providing the most resistance.
Using them the other way is like a plough and always seamed counter productive. I don't want to move the earth... I want to compact it.
Added edit...
I agree that having them with edges facing direction of pull is presenting the weakness in design, but.....
This being a lightweight /ultralight based forum... Were not pegging huge tents / tarps that have a massive surface area that increases the the force exerted on a peg. I only use a v peg for hem or low level panel ties where the force is less.
Out of. Curiosity.. It would be interesting to see how much force a fully sunk blizzard peg with its u shape could take. I use one for soft ground trips as a beak guy peg on the supermid and only carry one as it can serve as a trowel, mince meat spoon, rain channel trench tool, sheep $hyt flicker.....
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WilliamC
Thru Hiker
I concur with @Mole and @Chiseller with regard to V-pegs.
As to the angle of the guy line to the peg, if it's less than 90°, some component of the force (force on the peg times the cosine of the angle) is attempting to pull the peg out of the ground (the smaller the angle, the greater the force). So physics says that perpendicular to the guy line is best. This is often reduced to place your pegs at 45° to the ground, but this is a rough approximation and only true if the guy line is at 45° to the ground. (It's also why longer lines will hold better.)
There may be times when reality trumps physics (perhaps if the type of ground is particularly resistant to the peg pulling out, or if the surface soil is loose so you need the peg to go deeper to avoid being pulled through the soil) but as a general rule, perpendicular is best.
BTW @Fossil Bluff, I haven't watched this video yet, but I've really enjoyed the ones I have watched, and I don't generally enjoy videos.
As to the angle of the guy line to the peg, if it's less than 90°, some component of the force (force on the peg times the cosine of the angle) is attempting to pull the peg out of the ground (the smaller the angle, the greater the force). So physics says that perpendicular to the guy line is best. This is often reduced to place your pegs at 45° to the ground, but this is a rough approximation and only true if the guy line is at 45° to the ground. (It's also why longer lines will hold better.)
There may be times when reality trumps physics (perhaps if the type of ground is particularly resistant to the peg pulling out, or if the surface soil is loose so you need the peg to go deeper to avoid being pulled through the soil) but as a general rule, perpendicular is best.
BTW @Fossil Bluff, I haven't watched this video yet, but I've really enjoyed the ones I have watched, and I don't generally enjoy videos.
Mole
Thru Hiker
Apparently peg perpendicular to the earth is best as the stake is deeper.
This is in technical manuals for the big tent/marquee industry. The more vertical it is, the deeper the stake goes .
It seems against logic I know, and I don't practice it much while camping.
And the more surface area on the peg the better.
And of course, peg should be in full depth so line is at/close to ground level where it's attached.
Mole
Thru Hiker
I've also seen several backpacking related videos and websites stating peg perpendicular to earth is most effective.
E.g. Sierra Trading Post here:
@3mins 40secs
https://video.sierra.com/v/tent-stakes-maximum-holding-power/225137791
E.g. Sierra Trading Post here:
@3mins 40secs
https://video.sierra.com/v/tent-stakes-maximum-holding-power/225137791
EM-Chiseller
Thru Hiker
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WilliamC
Thru Hiker
And notice at about 4 minutes how the webbing is moving up on the peg? In wind, that will try to pull the peg out of the ground. In may be that with some pegs in some soil, the peg will hold well enough to resist this but I know from experience sometimes the peg will work its way vertically upwards and out. When I'm on poor soil, I'll often put the peg in vertically with a rock on top. The rock stops the peg from pulling up and out.
I think the best option is to have pegs long enough to put in perpendicular to the force but still be deep enough to reach the good soil.
In my youth, I spent a couple of seasons working for Eurocamp. One spring, we were erecting tents on the site I was to spend the season on. It had rained a lot and the soil was like soup. I put the pegs in perpendicular to the lines and they just pulled through the slop. I put them in vertically and the lines just pulled them up and out. In the end, I put a peg in perpendicular and put a second vertically in front of it placed so that the head of the vertical peg was directly in front of the head of the angled peg. The vertical peg reached down to firmer ground and prevented the angled peg from pulling through the soil. Six months later, when I left, they were all still holding firm.
These days I carry a couple of 9" Sorex pegs to use the same way in loose soil.
Fossil Bluff
Thru Hiker
That made me laugh, this is more of a demonstration as to why you should have longer guys, not the angle of the pegs. He virtually measuring how easy it is pull a peg out when you packing up
I think it is valid, in the respect that if you have guyed close to the tent then the guy is ineffective. The purpose of the guy should be to add structural support to the tent, not just hold it vertically down.
WilliamC
Thru Hiker
Indeed...That made me laugh, this is more of a demonstration as to why you should have longer guys, not the angle of the pegs. He virtually measuring how easy it is pull a peg out when you packing up
I think it is valid, in the respect that if you have guyed close to the tent then the guy is ineffective. The purpose of the guy should be to add structural support to the tent, not just hold it vertically down.
I think it's valid with respect to, say, apex guys, which would have to be unfeasibly long in order to meet the ground at a low angle.
With perimeter guys, the angle to the ground is going to be low. This means the angle of the line to a vertical peg is going to be close to 90° and the component of the force attempting to pull the peg out will be low (less than 10% at 85° to the peg, or 5° to the ground). It also means that a peg placed at 90° to the line will be close to vertical and go in nearly as deep as a vertical peg (an 18cm peg will go 17.9cm deep with an angle of 5° to the ground).
In other words, with low angle lines (e.g. perimeter lines) it probably matters not a whit.
EM-Chiseller
Thru Hiker
That pulley angle doesn't represent the majority of shelters... That kind of angle in my eyes... Will favour the 45deg peg.
I'd like to see the same test with a more realistic pitch angle.
Using the pulley system is giving a mechanical advantage and increases the tension in a big way.
I often (nearly always) use a truckers hitch type pulley on my guys. I do tend to place my peg at a pitch though unless I really can't get it in the ground enough. This one is less than 45° and was tentioned with a mechanical advantage.
Fossil Bluff
Thru Hiker
Indeed...
I think it's valid with respect to, say, apex guys, which would have to be unfeasibly long in order to meet the ground at a low angle.
With perimeter guys, the angle to the ground is going to be low. This means the angle of the line to a vertical peg is going to be close to 90° and the component of the force attempting to pull the peg out will be low (less than 10% at 85° to the peg, or 5° to the ground). It also means that a peg placed at 90° to the line will be close to vertical and go in nearly as deep as a vertical peg (an 18cm peg will go 17.9cm deep with an angle of 5° to the ground).
In other words, with low angle lines (e.g. perimeter lines) it probably matters not a whit.
I don't know what a 'whit' is, but I agree